Jake: 0:00

Coming to you almost live from Berkeley, California. It's Aaron's Radio Show, with your host, Aaron Gobler.

Aaron Gobler: 0:19

Thanks, Jake. And welcome, everybody to Episode 53. Welcome to My Three Songs, where I play three special songs chosen by my guest, and we talk about why they chose each song. Today my guest is Joe Shertok. Joel is a chemical and materials consultant, and his wife Susan was my guest on Episode 45, in which she performed her three songs on her accordion. Welcome to the show. Joel, how are you today?

Joel Shertok: 1:15

I'm very fine. Aaron, how are you?

Aaron Gobler: 1:16

I'm doing well. Thank you. Joe, you know, I'd like to know more about your profession. Can you tell me what you do?

Joel Shertok: 1:21

Absolutely. I'm a chemical engineer by training. I graduated from the Cooper Union in 1971, a school in New York City. Princeton University in 75 with a doctorate and went to industry, and was a practicing chemical engineer for over 40 years. And what I did was something called Process Research. And when people think of research, they see a guy in a white coat going through a very pristine lab. But my role was to go into chemical plants and try and optimize their processes. So I traveled to Puerto Rico to Europe, a variety of places, looking at first Union Carbide plants, that was my initial job with the idea of making them more efficient, more profitable, etc, etc. But my role eventually became something called"scale-up and commercialization", which is to say, okay, a chemist has a process, it's all on glassware, no beakers, retorts, things like that, what you see in science fiction movies. They can make, oh, 20 grams of a product. And they go to a customer and the customer absolutely loves it. It's the best thing they ever, ever seen, except they need for 440 pounds, a drum, to make a customer trial. And the chemist has no idea what to do. And my job was to go and work with the chemist, first take the process into a pilot plant, we would make that 440 pounds. And then if the customer really liked it, you go into full commercial production, we started making tons. And that was my career. I worked in chemicals. I worked in biotech, I worked in materials, but the basic theme is always the same, take a process, make it commercial and make money on it. So I did that until 2014. And my company at that point, invited me to retire because I was 66.

Aaron Gobler: 3:06

Okay.

Joel Shertok: 3:06

And I said no thanks. And they said "yeah ... you oughta". So I said okay. So that day, I became a consultant, president of Process Industries Consultants in Newark, Delaware. And I've been doing that ever since. And I've worked a great deal with "green tech", a lot of sustainability. People who are starting a company have a process, but don't know what to do with it. And I go in, and I help them scale that process up and make them a success.

Aaron Gobler: 3:32

And are you on working on a contract basis, then for one company for a period of time? Or are you working with many companies?

Joel Shertok: 3:41

Many, I work for as many as eight at a time. Okay, I used to get paid by the hour or get a retainer, depending on what the assignment is, as great because every day is different. And the companies are all very different people, different personalities, different processes. So it's lots of fun.

Aaron Gobler: 3:57

And are you doing this from your from your home? Primarily?

Joel Shertok: 3:59

Yeah, outta my bedroom!

Aaron Gobler: 4:00

Awesome. So that was something that you started before the pandemic?

Joel Shertok: 4:03

Oh, yeah, really, to be perfectly frank, the pandemic really didn't have much effect on me. Most of my stuff is out of my house, there's not that much traveling. So I know who is there and of course, the steer by networking meetings quite a bit. But as far as you know, clients not a problem. You know, Zoom is a wonderful invention.

Aaron Gobler: 4:22

Joe, I'm so glad you offered to be on the show. And I imagine Susan has been suggesting this to you for a while. What ultimately made you decide to be a guest?

Joel Shertok: 4:31

I just enjoyed talking about music. I think I have some insights that perhaps are not typical. And I love talking. So how can you beat that combination?

Aaron Gobler: 4:40

Yeah, I can't argue with that. So before we get to your song list, can you tell me like how music fits into your life? Like do you seek it out? As it usually in the foreground or the background of each day?

Joel Shertok: 4:51

It's a very fascinating story. When I was in elementary school, my elementary school had a wonderful man named Marvin Fleishaker. He taught fifth grade and sixth grade, and he formed a full philharmonic orchestra of New York street kids. So, in the fourth grade, you auditioned. And if he liked you, you were offered a place in his orchestra. So I auditioned as a fourth grader and we're talking 1958, 1959. And he said, Okay, you're good enough. We'll take you in. And what does every good Jewish boy play? The violin or the clarinet? Right? That's what they played.

Aaron Gobler: 5:26

Right!

Joel Shertok: 5:27

And Mr. Fleishaker, said, "nah, everybody plays clarinet. Everybody plays violin. Joel, you're gonna be an oboe player!" My parents and I said, what's an oboe? And he showed us an oboe, which was nothing that I had ever seen before. And I became an oboe player. And I joined the orchestra as a fifth grader. And it was a great experience. Now, I will tell you, unlike my wife, I have no musical talent at all. It was it was very clear very early on. I was not ... actually I did go to Carnegie Hall. That's a whole different story. But what Marvin Fleishaker actually did, he formed a really professional philharmonic orchestra with with kids, fifth and sixth graders. And we did stand-alone concerts, we did Broadway shows that were disguised to avoid copyright problems, and it was a great experience. And doing that I was able to join the Bronx Oboe Orchestra and Band, because oboe players were very, very rare. So although I was miserable, having no talent, if you have a choice of two people, guess what? You've got no choice in the matter. So if I play clarinet I never would have gotten in. As an oboe player. I was welcome. I played "Wonderama", which was a Sonny Fox show on channel 5 in the late 50s. I did go to Carnegie Hall, the Bronx Oboe Orchestra and Band played Carnegie Hall.

Aaron Gobler: 6:51

Nice.

Joel Shertok: 6:51

So that was my introduction to music. And as a result, I became interested in radio, music, Rock 'n Roll in the 50s, the 70s, the 80s, 90s. Now, if you want my opinion, the music today is not worth much. But that's because I'm 73 and an old, cranky old man. And my kids think my tastes are horrible. But my parents thought my tastes are horrible. So it just continues from generation after generation. And music is not the most important thing in my life. I like to listen, and I'm really much into the 70s and 80s. A little bit of the 90s. 2000s ... not so much. And anything since 2010, I don't understand.

Aaron Gobler: 7:31

You have children?

Joel Shertok: 7:32

Yean, I have an older son, middle daughter and a youngest son ... which is terrifying!

Aaron Gobler: 7:41

Did your children also adopt some of the music you were listening to?

Joel Shertok: 7:46

Not so much. My younger two kids were not that into music. And my son was very into obscure bands. He loved ska music, and groups that I could not understand that The Chainsmokers. I listened to them. And he said, well isn't this great?! And I said, I don't hear much.

Aaron Gobler: 8:05

Yeah, that's really fascinating. Like, why when you're growing up with your own set of music ... what about the template or something or the something about that music doesn't jibe with the newer stuff?

Joel Shertok: 8:18

Absolutely. The 70s and 80 music, I think it's fantastic. They scratch their head and say, Boy, it's pretty absurd. What do you see in it?

Aaron Gobler: 8:26

Yeah. What I find fascinating too, is that there's some stuff that just bubbles up through through all of it. Like there's certain Beatle songs and some just some classic songs that continue to keep bubbling up to the current time that there's still ageless songs. That's fascinating to watch songs continue to be ones that just generation to generation continue to be played and enjoyed.

Joel Shertok: 8:50

Well, I think what has to what your life is at that particular time. For instance, I was in graduate school in the early 70s 71, to 75. And it was an incredibly, incredibly intense time. I mean, going from undergraduate to graduate school, was a whole different experience. And one of the songs I was playing when it first started was Rod Stewart's"Maggie Mae." And then when I hear "Maggie Mae", I'm once again, the first year graduate student in 1970. And same thing, there's a whole bunch of songs during that period. The minute I hear them, boom, I'm back.

Aaron Gobler: 9:20

If you go back to like episode, one of the Radio Show, I start talking about how how music has that transportive or, you know, and even transformative quality. When we hear it, we can be taken back at some other place, just like for some people, it might be a smell, or a sight of something. And it is pretty remarkable how... a certain song will come on, and I'll remember like having my newspaper route when I was, you know, in my early teens, something like that. But I mean that case, it's that song that you're hearing again, you haven't heard in a long time and it brings you back, but I'm also thinking of songs like certain Beatles songs that just continue to this day that younger people will play or recognize or such. So there's certain ones that, that that kind of bubble up from 50s 60s 70s, they keep coming up, then we're in like the 2020s. And kids today still, some of them they recognize those songs or those songs or redone, remade or sampled or other kinds of things into the stuff that listening to.

Aaron Gobler.: 10:31

So Joel, let's jump into your list of songs, the songs you chose today we're"Jump" by Van Halen from 1984, which also is the name of the album title. "Pumped Up Kicks" by Foster The People from 2011. And "Semi-charmed Lie" by Third Eye Blind from 1997. So I'm eager for us both to listen to these songs. And I'm interested in knowing why each of them is meaningful to you. So let's start listening to your first song, "Jump" by Van Halen.

Aaron Gobler: 11:01

Joel, I used to be a huge Van Halen fan. You know, I think I saw them at least three times in concert at the Spectrum in Philadelphia in the 80s. And I'm pretty sure I still have a T-shirt from one of those concerts. I don't think it fits anymore, but I'm pretty sure I still have it somewhere. So I'm eager to know what inspired you to include this song on your list?

Joel Shertok: 11:30

Well, the three songs I chose have a common sub-theme, okay. And the one it called fake-out songs. And they're called fake-out songs because you listen to the beat, and the music and sounds incredibly cheery and upbeat. I mean, how could you not find"Jump" incredibly cheery? But if you analyze the lyrics, it's really quite dark. It's very, very dark. It's very, very dark, because ... they're two interpretations. In one case, the interpretation is the singer has had it. He said, his back's up against the wall up ... against the record machine. And he's thinking of jumping. He's thinking I might as well jump. I might as well jump. I might as well jump. And below him is a crowd yelling, jump, jump, jump. It's written ... oh, it's very dark. It's incredibly dark. In fact, a radio DJ got into serious trouble because somebody was threatening to jump off a bridge in the local area. And he inadvertently played "Jump" on the radio. And he got an awful lot of flak for that. Unintentional, I mean, it's certainly not deliberate. When you hear that song, you say boy what a cheery upbeat ... now if you're not paying any attention. If you like shopping in a supermarket and they played in the background, or you're not really paying attention, you hear the beat, you hear the music. So it's a pretty cheery, upbeat song. But the reality is no, it's somebody's thinking about jumping. And the crowd below encouraging him to jump jump. The other interpretation, which is a little less dark, is he's confronting somebody who doesn't want to jump ... is not the singer, not the person. It's a third party. And that third party wants to jump. And the singer saying, hey, you know, you think you've got it bad. I've had a worse ... now that's some of the lyrics ... I've had a pretty bad, my back's up against the wall. But if you're that depressed, and you want to end it all, hey, go ahead and jump. He's being facetious. He's trying to talk the person out of it. It says if you've had it, okay, go ahead. Go ahead and jump, jump, jump. And maybe the crowd below is also encouraging that person by saying jump, jump jump, but in this case, the protagonist, the singer is trying to talk the person out of it.

Aaron Gobler: 13:46

Okay. Yeah.

Joel Shertok: 13:47

So you have two different interpretations. One's really dark, and one's only semi-dark. But the dark thing is this people encouraging that person to jump and you've seen it? I mean, how many times have you seen somebody on a building and people below want a spectacle. They, want that guy to go down to for their own entertainment. Now, the other thing I find this interesting, a bunch of different reasons, is first of all, I think this is Van Halen, at the height of their power. Really the height of that of, of Eddie Van Halen's guitar playing and David Lee Roth's singing ... they broke up a year afterwards, and also it's the beginning of what's called the so called "cheap video era". If you look it's pretty, you know, production values are so-so, it's just, David Lee Roth jumping around. You compare that to something like say the "Total Eclipse of the Heart" by Bonnie Tyler, which is incredibly overproduced, it is over the top. And that was about the height of the way, way way overproduced music video. The reaction was Van Halen and that basically started a whole new trend to hey, let's keep this cheap. You know, video shouldn't be the shouldn't be the message. The record's the message?

Aaron Gobler: 14:56

Yeah. I mean, MTV came out in 81. And this album came out at the very beginning of 84, there was just floods of videos out there, and people were kind of looking for ways to outdo the previous video production. And this video is is basically them just hopping around on a stage, which is, I mean, a large part of what they did were, were concerts. And like I mentioned earlier, I had seen them so many times in concert, and they were to spectacular concerts. Yeah, this has seemed to make a lot of sense to make a short film of them in a concert type of setting.

Joel Shertok: 15:31

Save some production costs!

Aaron Gobler: 15:33

Exactly. Then your discussion about the lyrics and the meaning really underscores how, at least for me, in a lot of cases, and I think a lot of music listeners, is that we might even sing lyrics to a song, and or not even know all the lyrics. But, but not even, like, ever consider what was what the meaning of them were, you know, if someone were to read that as a poem, without the music, you might have it, your brain might have more of a chance to kind of really digest what was being said. And that when it's to music, like you mentioned, your brain may not wrap itself around the lyrics at all, and have no idea what was the intent of the song I did have. My sister was on this show a long time ago. And we were listening to a song by Shawn Colvin, when you actually take the lyrics and break them down, you realize there's a lot going on in the words, but you really have to listen to it and pay attention to it. And I think with a lot of songs, we just don't do that.

Joel Shertok: 16:35

Well, you tend to go with the beat. And you don't tend to listen closely. There's an acoustic version out by by another artist made maybe 10, 20 years later, was a lot more obvious because it's an acoustic guitar doesn't have all the percussion. And you can concentrate much more on the lyrics. And there the dark intent is a lot more obvious. The perfect example is, you may be old enough to remember remember "Dominique", by The Singing Nun, way back way back when it was in French as a cheery note, "Dominique." But people didn't realize the historical context was the crushing of the heresy in southern France that left that 100,000 people dead. Which is the danger of singing a song in a foreign language ... you don't know what you're singing!

Aaron Gobler: 17:20

Yeah, it's, yeah, especially in a foreign language, you wouldn't, you wouldn't know what you're singing. And again, if it rhymes, or it has a certain meter or beat to it, you might not really understand what exactly it is. And then see, you said that the other songs that you chose have a similar type of deception or another interpretation. That's a good segue to your next song, which is from 2011, "Pumped Up Kicks" by Foster The People, we'llgive that a listen and we'll talk about it on the other side.

Aaron Gobler.: 17:54

Joel, when I first heard the song, it really struck me for like, how different it sounded from a lot of the pop music I'd heard before. Maybe it was like the staccato delivery or the odd lyrics or the voice of the singer or some kind of combination of those. What inspired you to include the song on your list?

Joel Shertok: 18:20

Again, it's a fake-out song. I remember the first time I heard it. I was up in Rochester, New York. And I played my radio in the morning when I got up no 4:30, 5 o'clock in the morning. And they began to begin getting like a heavy rotation. And I heard it and I said, Well, what a cheery song, and oh, blah, blah, blah, of course when you play it at 5:30, it's kind of low and you can't really make out the lyrics. So like a very cheery, upbeat song. I happened to speak to my daughter about it, and she said Dad, it's about a school shooting. Have you listened to the lyrics? And I said, really? So the next time I heard it, I turned up the volume so I could actually hear the lyrics. And my God, it was about a school shooting. And if ... unless you listen closely, it's hard to catch. It's hard to catch because the the initial lyrics are filtered, very heavily filtered. The beat is really upbeat. At the end, they whistle. It's like Andy Griffith. Remember the Griffith Show? They include the theme song at the end, they whistle and unless you listen very, very closely, it's going to escape you. So I included that because it's a fake-out song ... cheery beat beat. I mean, listen to the bass line. Now it's pretty nice and the whistling is pretty nice. And the lyrics are musical and they come together. But how much darker can you than a school shooting? You know basically, it's going into the mind of maybe a 14, 15 year-old and he's basically going crazy. He's living under extreme pressure. His father works long hours, gets a frozen dinner when his Dad decides to come home. And the Dad's stupid enough to leave a gun out with bullets, and the kid's envious because his classmates can afford the pumped up kicks, maybe a Nike from the 90s, that's 175 bucks, you could pump up you can use air to pump up your, your sneakers to get more. And he can't afford that. I mean, that's a lot of money. And 20 years ago, it was really a lot of money. And he's resentful. And he's probably being picked on. He's a cowboy kid smoking cigarettes. And you see the type, I mean, they exist in every school. And this guy cracks up and goes after his goes after his schoolmates. And there's no remorse, there's not a single bit of remorse, you better run faster than my gun, and you better outrun my bullets. I'm going to get, I'm going to make it up to you what you've done to me for the last X number of years, or what I perceive you've done to me for the last couple of years.

Aaron Gobler: 20:53

I'm sure it may be either pleasing or maybe displeasing to some artists when they create something that has a dark thing, dark thread to it, that they see people really enjoying it. And not and not realizing how dark it is, it must be kind of odd to to have people experience your music in a way that you did not necessarily intend or expect.

Joel Shertok: 21:19

Well, I think in this case, it's deliberate. I mean, the case of "Jump" in the case of "Pumped Up Kicks", and the case of Third Eye Blind that will we'll listen to later, it's deliberate. It's not a matter of oh, I wrote something that's misinterpreted. One song that I think about is Michael Penn's"No Myth." That's a song that's very consistent, the beat's consistent, the song is consistent. There's no hidden message. It's about people being lonely. You can choose to write a song and make it very clear what you have in mind. Or you can write a song in which the intent is disguised. And that depends on on particular take on art.

Aaron Gobler: 21:53

Yeah.

Joel Shertok: 21:54

Now the other thing that's interesting is, the video that goes with this is absolutely horrible. I don't know what the record company was thinking. But the video that they made to go along with"Pumped Up Kicks", is miserable, has nothing to do with the song. It's random scenes. And my son had an interpretation that the group became famous too fast. And the record company didn't have time to turn out a first-class video. So they kind of settled. But there's an awful lot of videos that are sort of DIY do-it-yourself that people have made, and those are pretty, pretty dark!

Aaron Gobler: 22:29

You're saying others have made their own videos to the song?

Joel Shertok: 22:32

Yes, yeah. As opposed to record company. People took it upon themselves to stage a video type of song, and some of them are very well done. And there's no mistaking what the theme is.

Aaron Gobler: 22:44

Yeah, so that's inspired people to do their own visual art to the song.

Aaron Gobler.: 22:50

So let's jump into the third song on your list, which you just mentioned a moment ago, by Third Eye Blind,"Semi-charmed Life."

Aaron Gobler: 22:58

Joel, I feel like the Third Eye Blind sound epitomized the musical feel of the late 90s. I mean, it's not grunge necessarily. It's not Dave Matthews' type folksy stuff. And it's just just raucous enough, you know? What did you choose to include this song?

Joel Shertok: 23:24

Well, again, it's one of those fake-out songs. When you hear it. It says what like bubblegum pop? Right? Nice, cheerful, upbeat, nice percussion background. And again, if you listen to it with half an ear when you're shopping or when you're just listening to the radio, while you're having breakfast. Can you think of a more cheery upbeat song? I mean it's bubblegum, bubblegum pop, you know, maybe a girls group from the 19, mid 1980s, something like that. And then we listen to the lyrics. I mean, it can't get any worse. You absolutely cannot get any worse lyrics that from a lead singer ... is the guy's ultimate degradation. He's on some sort of drug, it's cocaine or crack or something. And he is experiencing the end of his life. He knows that he knows he can't go any lower. He's as low as he can get. And the only thing he could think about is I need another hit. I need another hit to get me through this life. So although he's degraded, he just wants to degrade himself some more and can't think of any other way out of the trap he set for himself. He's obviously with a woman, and the woman means something to him. And they're having sex, but the sex doesn't mean anything to him because he's too high to appreciate it. And he thinks back to a time when he was more innocent. He talks about like the the sand between his toes. And you've seen that ... you see little kids absolutely delighting no walking on the beach. Just the feel of the sand is enough to keep them happy. And he remembers that time when he was more innocent, and he can enjoy life enjoy the simple things. And he realizes that he's ruined that he is beyond that point. To the point where his girlfriend said Goodbye. He says I don't care. I don't care. I want my other hit. I want to hit to make to get me through his day. And to worry about tomorrow, tomorrow. It's just incredibly dark. And again, it's a very serious message of human degradation wrapped up in a real cheery beat. What the group wants ... he wants you to get through the apparent cheeriness that some people show and look at what they're going through in their life. You know, it's the old Jamaican saying you hear a lot, "you can't tell the roof is leaking until you go inside the house." And it's the exact same thing with this, you can't realize the guy's degradation from this outward cheeriness. He's in bad bad shape. And the chance's pretty good, he could be found dead sometime. He knows it. He absolutely knows it, and can't do a thing about it.

Aaron Gobler: 25:48

Yeah, that is definitely definitely very dark. Especially as you as you identify all those parts of it... and listening to it, just like you said, with like, one ear, you might hear certain terms and expressions and stuff like that. And even the title doesn't necessarily speak to exactly what he's talking about. It does make you wonder, though, you know, when the artist wrote this, was he basing it on on experiences he had or you know, an imagined situation?

Joel Shertok: 26:15

I suspect it's imagined. I think people who are that low or that addicted are no longer creative. I mean, you've seen it quite a few times where rock stars go down that road of alcohol and drugs, and some can survive, but most don't, most lose that lose their voice. So I suspect this is a cautionary tale, based upon maybe their experience with a friend or something they've witnessed out in the road.

Aaron Gobler: 26:39

Now so Joel, in this thread or theme, then, are you listening to songs with a more discerning ear? Now, when you hear any song? Are you paying more attention to the lyrics or just some songs?

Joel Shertok: 26:50

I guess you have to ... but my problem with today's music is they don't make the same demands. The songs, the the authors, the writers, the lyricist, the musicians, they make demands on their on the listeners. Hey, drop what you're doing and listen to what I'm saying. It's not what you think it is. Like reading a very dense book with lots of symbolism. It's like reading "Moby Dick." Herman Melville uses lots of biblical allusions, and situations to illustrate his examples of life on a whaling boat. Got to think about what you're reading. Same thing with the songs you have to think about what you're listening to and get past the surface stuff. Today's songs from what I've seen, I don't think they make the same demands in my opinion... as a cranky old man. Though the sad songs are sad songs. The happy songs are happy songs. You don't hear the same surprise twist. The only thing that maybe comes near is maybe The Killer's"Mr. Brightside." That's what the same thing. But even that's now relatively old compared to what you hear today. I think the fact that there's much more streaming and the financial model has changed so much, that there's more of a premium for keeping it bland and not not being controversial.

Aaron Gobler: 28:06

Well, the whole streaming thing changed the industry in a lot of ways and what kind of material you would put out ... if it wouldn't be an album any longer. It would just be individual songs or single

Joel Shertok: 28:18

What it is, is back in the era, we're talking about tours, were a loss-leader. They were there to basically sell records. And now, tours are the moneymaker. Because no one's making money. You make pays on listen. So it's now on spectacle and trying to get eyes on to get people to come to rock concerts. And you may not get that, you know,with controversial songs.

Aaron Gobler: 28:42

Yeah, I see. I see your point there. Yeah, it's the whole landscape has has changed a lot. And I don't know what the next. I mean, records and tapes. And those things were around for generations. So I don't know what's after streaming. I mean, there's always going to be in in-person performances. Yeah, I'm curious what, what's next?

Joel Shertok: 29:03

Well, the problem is to go to rock concert now is a major investment in cash.

Aaron Gobler: 29:07

Yes. Oh, that's true. Yeah.

Joel Shertok: 29:09

Five bucks. got you into the Fillmore East. Yeah. Not the moneymakers. They are being squeezed for every last penny, because that's how these guys are making a living now. So that by definition, limited, it's limited demographic, you know, in the 60s 70s, no matter where you were, you could probably afford a ticket. Now. It's becoming an upper-class phenomena because who can afford the 70, 80 bucks to get in.

Aaron Gobler: 29:34

Yeah, that's very true. Yeah, I think that's for the worst.

Joel Shertok: 29:37

Oh, much for the worst. It's like baseball. Baseball was now a major, a major expense if you want to go see get a ticket.

Aaron Gobler: 29:43

Yeah, it's a very different landscape.

Joel Shertok: 29:45

So yeah, so I think the songs are very instructive, both of the era that they came from, and how the music industry has changed. Be it lyrics or be it the videos. Now even the videos are much much different than they used to be.

Aaron Gobler: 29:58

Joel was there anything else you'd like to share about your selections, like anything else that you thought about while you were listening to a particular song, or an answer to a question I haven't asked?

Joel Shertok: 30:08

No, I think we've hit hit the high spots, I think that these pieces are representative of their time. I think today "Jump" wouldn't get very far. It's a much different world. I think Foster the People" will be as popular today, as it was back in 2011. Because the situation has gotten even more acute over the last 10 years. And Third Eye Blind? It's a toss-up. It's a toss-up there again, of a period of time when when addiction was incredibly dangerous, and people were dying in the streets of crack. You don't see that much anymore. People are too distracted by their other problems. And COVID, COVID has knocked things off the front page ... for two or three years. And people are more concerned about dying of a virus than of drug addiction.

Aaron Gobler: 30:51

Well, Joel, I had a great time talking with you about music and it's obvious that you have a deep, deep love of music and certainly a deep interest in lyrics and just in the power of song, especially in being able to mask dark themes with you know, bobby music and I want to thank you for our discussion about that because it's made me kind of examine some of these ... certainly made me examine all these these three songs, and be potentially aware of other songs that might have that same kind of contradiction per se. I hope you enjoyed yourself today.

Joel Shertok: 31:26

It's been fantastic. I really appreciate it.

Aaron Gobler: 31:29

So thank you again, Joel. I appreciate you putting your list together and taking time to speak with me today. And I want to say to my listeners if you want to be part of the show. Start by going to our website Aaron's Radio dot Show, and clicking on the My Three Songs button on the homepage. You can also sign up for our mailing list so you'll know immediately when a new episode is available. You can also find Aaron's Radio Show on your favorite podcast service. But the podcast episodes only include interviews and no licensed music.

Aaron Gobler.: 31:59

Before we wrap up this episode, I wanted to let you know of an experimental format we have for the radio show called dedications. If you're familiar with Casey Kasem's Top 40 show, he would read a dedication written by one listener with hopes that it would reach the ears of another listener, and then he would play the song. I'm hoping to recapture some of that magic. So I'm asking you, if you have a dedication you'd like to make this somebody please go to Aaron's Radio dot show slash dedications to submit yours. Once I receive a few I'll begin making episodes based on those dedications.

Aaron Gobler: 32:37

So until next time, keep your ears and mind open and let more music into your world.

Female voice: 32:58

You're listening to Aaron's Radio Show.